Princess Nisreen El - Hashemite

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Doreen Bogdan-Martin:

Today, February 11, 2021 is special because today is the day we celebrate the International Day of Women and Girls in Science. Thank you for joining me for this first episode of the UNconnected – a podcast series focused on bringing 3.7 billion unconnected people online.

Connecting the unconnected to advance sustainable development is our goal. It is also the theme of ITU’s top digital development conference that's taking place this coming November. The first episode of this podcast series coincides with the launch of this year's Girls in ICT Day Campaign, which will be celebrated on April 22. Girls in ICT Day aims to inspire, to engage and to promote the active participation of girls and women in the digital world. From small beginnings over a decade ago, the day is now celebrated in over 170 countries worldwide through fun events like digital workshops and inspirational talks by tech leaders and digital pioneers. Girls who are equipped with job-specific skills related to STEM, from digital engineering, computer programming, digital application development for health sciences, education or almost any other field we can think of, have a great future ahead of them. The possibilities are endless and the opportunities for exciting, well-paid jobs are growing fast around the world. Engaging and inspiring young girls to help them understand the great opportunities that STEM studies can offer has been a personal passion of mine for many years, and has become one of the core commitments of ITU and its members in our mandate to Connect the World.

To discuss the subject in-depth, I'm delighted to have with me today Princess Nisreen El-Hashemite, who is the founder and president of ‘Women in Science’. Dr El-Hashemite is best known as what we might call a ‘science activist’, promoting women in science and women's health and development. Thank you Nisreen for joining us. How are you?

Princess Dr Nisreen El-Hashemite:

Thank you very much indeed. And I'm doing well. Thank you so much. Excited about our day— February 11. And thank you for hosting me.

Ms Doreen Bogdan-Martin:

Great. So let's start with the basics. Digital connectivity is an essential tool, and boys and girls should have equal access to it. But why do you think we should pay particular attention to girls’ connectivity?

Princess Dr Nisreen El-Hashemite:

Well, first of all, allow me to acknowledge and commend the great work of ITU, our partner, since the proposal for the Resolution and all the discussions till the Resolution has been adopted and celebrated every February 11. And to commend your work and all colleagues’ work in ITU – it means a lot to us. With your work and with your continuous support, I believe that no girl will be left unconnected. So thank you as a woman in science, as a woman in STEM, and as a woman myself, I would like to say thank you to you and to ITU. Why it is important to bring girls into ICT or to be connected with the world...? As you mentioned, it is 3.7 billion voices. And if we would like to achieve equality, and to achieve the Sustainable Development Goals, we cannot leave anyone behind. It is important in this situation, the COVID-19 pandemic; for those who do not have the connectivity or the opportunity to be connected with different parts of the world, I don't think they managed even to be with their colleagues and classes in education, even to cope with all these economic crises. So, it is very important for today and tomorrow and for the future. So, yes, we need every girl to be connected. I saw this with the Girls in Science for SDD International Platform through which I mentor girls from all continents and from different countries, different time zones. If we are not connected through this amazing technology, if they do not have the skills, how can we reach more girls, how can we achieve what we are aiming for – to encourage girls to go and choose STEM or science as a career or as a future, but not only to choose science as a career, but as well as to think of science to meet the challenges of the future?

Ms Doreen Bogdan-Martin:

Absolutely. And well, I want to thank you, because you are really an inspiration to so many. And as you rightly said, we need every girl to be connected and sustainable development will never happen until we achieve digital gender equality. So, there is this digital gender gap that you have rightly noted needs to be bridged. But can you tell us more about which girls you see as being left behind, and what kinds of limitations they're facing that makes it harder for them to connect?

Princess Dr Nisreen El-Hashemite:

Well, actually, as you may know, the SDGs have two goals, talking about equality. SDG 5, which is on gender equality and SDG 10 which is on equality between countries and within a country. So, in order to reach every girl, as well as every person on the planet, we need to look at equality between countries. We need to focus on as well the infrastructure, providing internet services or providing technology education to different countries. So, we need to move from North to South and to create that South-South cooperation and East to West and West to East. This is very important. If we aim to reach every girl, we need also to focus on SDG 10- equality between countries – and at the same time to build within each country the capacity of its own people through education and with a special focus on the social aspects and cultural dimension of every country or every society. We need to make technology connectivity part of their daily life. And to do so, we need to understand the culture and the sociology of that particular community to make it part of their daily life. And before that, we need to start with the main thing – the infrastructure. People think only governments can do this work. But we women in science can do this work.  Women in business can do this work. Women all around, you know, in different fields can do this work, whether they are celebrities, whether they are working in any other fields in academia and private sector and policymaking. So why do people think only it is just for governments to do? What about us taking the lead as women? If we talk about our role as leaders in this world, then let's take the lead and take small initiatives, larger initiatives and work together. So, we need to focus on the nexus of SDG 5 with SDG 10 in order to look at other SDGs and to achieve connectivity or connect girls together – together for health, for reproductive health or education, for knowledge, for ending poverty, for sustainable agriculture, etc. This is my opinion because I work with girls and women from different countries every day. And I think it is now our part as women to take the lead, and not just ask governments to do such things.

Ms Doreen Bogdan-Martin:

Absolutely. I couldn't agree with you more. It’s about also women stepping up, women leading and I perfectly agree with your points on the SDGs as well. And I would maybe add in there SDG 9 ,that has affordable access to the Internet by 2020, a goal that unfortunately we didn't achieve, and maybe add as well as SDG 17, which is all about partnerships. As you noted, it’s a big challenge not just for governments alone, but for all stakeholders. And it’s not simply an infrastructure issue. It’s also looking at the social dimensions, as you noted, and the cultural dimensions. And I think, as you mentioned in the beginning, the COVID-19 pandemic has really shown us that girls not having equal access to technology and the internet means that they are being excluded. So, they are being excluded from education, from job opportunities and from the chance to participate equally in this increasingly digital world. Can we maybe talk a bit about SDG 17 on partnerships and how you see the role of partnerships in bridging the gap?

Princess Dr Nisreen El-Hashemite:

Well, the number 17 is very important in my life because I was born on the day of 17 July! It's all about the partnership. If we want to really achieve any advancement at any level, it is all about partnership. Some people might always think that it is “I’’ -the “I’’ mentality, but with the “I’’ mentality, what you can do, can you solve a problem? I always say to the girls and the youth that I mentor, even if you bring the best surgeon in the world, a Nobel Prize winning surgeon cannot function properly if he or she doesn't have the nurses, the technicians, everyone.

So, it takes a whole bunch of people to create such a successful operation. And it is the same in every field. Partnership is important, whether between technology companies, between governments and scientists, between policymakers and all other stakeholders. I think this is very important and no one can achieve it alone. And this is why we have been calling for so many years for science diplomacy. Science diplomacy is important and people think about science diplomacy in a certain way, but if scientists do not work from East to West, North to South, they could not have found in such a short period of time a vaccine for COVID-19, or identify the causes. This is an example from a health point of view, but it is just as true in education, in business, in the corporate world. We need that partnership. Now, it is all about the partnership. To really flourish and be successful we need a “We’’ mentality. When we succeed as a group, it is all of us. All of us. When we worked on establishing this special day on February 11…we were all working together on this Resolution. But everybody knows the “we’’…they don't know how many Member States sponsored this Resolution, but they know they see the outcome. So the “we” – this is our success. Now, when we come and talk about how to bring digitalization or technologies to people, it is all about the success stories and acknowledging each other. No one is a leader – or, rather, we all are leaders. If I succeed, my colleagues succeeded. And if they succeeded, I succeeded as well. So, we need to change the personal mentality on creating partnerships. That partnerships matter, even if you want as a corporate to make profit. Yes, of course, we need you to make profit because when you make a profit, you will employ more people. You will lift more people from poverty. That's my philosophy. But at the same time, you need to think about what you are going to get for the people that are giving you this profit. Without them you cannot make the profit. So we need to create that mentality to work with the people, to change the mentality so that there is nothing called “I’’, but it is always “we’’. And the best example is the United Nations and all its agencies, all its departments. All the people do the work. If we have the Secretary-General, if we have some people leading, they are the figureheads. But it is always the “we’’ mentality. And the UN, ITU, and all other UN agencies, it is the best example of partnership. And this is what we must create. But we must start with changing the mentality that it is “we’’ not “I’’… because with “I’’, we will be left behind and we will not achieve any of the goals…not by 2030 or after. And we need to tell people that it is our future. What are we going to leave as a legacy behind us if we do not work in partnership?

Ms Doreen Bogdan-Martin:

Absolutely, absolutely. Thank you for that. So really a need for a big mentality change focusing on that “we” and not the “I”. And I am also a big fan of the number 17, I got married on 17 May. So that's my lucky number too. So – and you have somewhat alluded to this already in terms of the way you see the United Nations – but can you maybe share a little more from your perspective; what happens when different actors, governments, private sector organizations, NGOs and activists successfully partner to achieve the goal of digital gender equality and bridge the gap, and also what you see as the tangible social and economic benefits for communities when they connect more girls and encourage them to pursue careers.

Princess Dr Nisreen El-Hashemite:

There is a quote that I love very much. From the famous Sufi, Rumi, and it says, “Woman is a ray of God. She's not that earthly beloved. She is creative, not created.’’ So, for the international community and multi-stakeholder community, for them to succeed, they need the creativity of women. And this is very important, you know, for all of us to make sure not only the SDGs are achieved, but also to make a profit and to benefit from the talent of women in developing societies and in finding solutions to problems. As agents for change, not as beneficiaries only. To start, we need to go with education. Education is very important. Science education in schools. It is very important to teach from grade one, whether it is in the sciences, how sciences touch our daily lives, how technology is touching our daily life, and how it is benefiting us. While people talk about social media and its negative impact, everything has a side effect, even water, drinking water, if you drink it more than you need. So, it depends on how we use this technology for our benefit. It depends on how we include this technology in education; to equip our educators and teachers with the technology skills, not to leave them behind, to train those who did not have the opportunity for education and at the same time to make it accessible. How to make it accessible? Please don't keep thinking about the prices – reduce the prices and you will make better profits. You can make profit based on the quantity, but not on a price that no-one can afford. There are so many families that cannot afford a laptop, which is three or four or five hundred pounds. It is a lot of money for them. So why not have refurbished computers and give them to us? Each one of us has those technologies in our homes that we do not use – refurbish it and give it to those in need. So, this is the partnership we are looking for. We are looking for starting with education, improving the education system, making technology available at all levels. Think about putting strategies, policy reforms, and at the end have a proper action plan. For us to succeed in all of this, we the people, the professional people, need to work hand-in-hand with the UN, with ITU, with multi-stakeholder community, and at the same time with policymakers to achieve this. Unfortunately, for the last several years, for the last 20 or 30 years, professional people stepped away from being an add-on to advise policymakers on what to do, on what the situation is, and how we can solve a problem. So, it is all about the mentality around education, to value education, to value teachers, to equip teachers in order to create a generation who can really lead and tell us about the technology and help. Technology is important. There are so many women who can benefit from technology, can do work from home, can sell their products from home…can do a lot of things. And this will elevate people from poverty. And some people think that, oh, it is the woman – no it is not the woman; when a woman is elevated from poverty, she will help her family. So, it is the whole. It is like when I say to people in medicine, when we talk about the sex differences, which is the biological differences in health and illness…because once we understand the biological differences, we can help women and men in a better way.

So, it is like this and I'm sorry if I speak like a scientist, not like as a policymaker, but I am a woman in science and I am an associate professor of medicine, so that's why I always look at things from the point of science, because for me, science is the core of finding any solution.  In science we always identify the problem, we devise the plan, a plan that is suitable for that particular society or community – we tailor the plan. So in science this is how we achieve results and analyse the results and then keep the plan developing. I'm sorry if I speak like a scientist, but this is the fact.

Ms Doreen Bogdan-Martin:

That's terrific! Thank you. And very concrete. I appreciate that. And the way you highlighted the important role of education, the need for technology to be accessible, to be available, and then that important aspect, good policy reform and having the policy work with different stakeholders in the science community, private sector, other intergovernmental organizations. Thank you. Thank you so much for that. One thing that we hear a lot about is how important it is for girls to have strong role models and inspirational stories so that they can gain confidence to really follow their dreams and to realize their potential. And as we say, you can see it, she can be it. Where can girls look for inspiration? Can we maybe clone you?

Princess Dr Nisreen El-Hashemite:

Thank you so much! It means a lot. Well, I need to go back then to my laboratory as a geneticist to clone myself!

Well, I always say to the girls that I mentor – we have role models and shining stars everywhere. I call the women ‘shining stars’. It's just for you to look for them. That woman who is a teacher is a shining star. And that woman who works in that place is a shining star. We need to look at role models within our communities to start with, to inspire girls. I remember a girl; her name is Talia Ozdemir from Turkey. In 2017, she spoke about the role of media and she said everyone is talking about Marie Curie, but can any one of you name a woman in science and a woman in technology other than Marie Curie… this is where the media plays a role. And for us, we need to encourage girls to highlight or to bring those role models from every society, from every country. You are leading a great programme and a great initiative and I commend you.  There are wonderful women in every country, in every community, in every city. If we will bring those women as role models for the girls in that particular country, and also for other girls from other countries, to see that there are women everywhere. And also we need to stop the stereotyping that we sometimes create unconsciously, without us knowing that we are creating a stereotype that affects the girls’ mentalities. For example, there were a lot of people saying, I don’t want to be a princess, I want to be a scientist, to the girls. But why not be a princess and a scientist? I am a princess and I am a scientist. What's wrong with that? So, we can be both. It's not an issue, but the other thing is that it has to be a Nobel Prize winner only, for women to be successful. But now there are so many amazing women in technology and scientists in every place. But we just need to encourage them to speak, to reach out, to have their social responsibility towards their communities, to be in touch with girls and to allow girls and boys as well to look up at them and learn from them and choose them as their role models.

So, it is very important for us to look at women and to change the angle and style of role models. Each woman has a successful story and each woman can give love. And we can highlight this. And also here we need to, in my opinion, to stop talking that we are less than men or in percentage, like women are 30 percent less than men, or there is male dominance. This is creating a negative psychological effect on the mind of every girl. Like girls are so afraid to go to computer science or engineering because this is male-dominated, they will not welcome me. I will have difficulties. But if we will say, if you believe that you can shine in this field, go and find your way. While in policy-making we can change other things for equal opportunities for empowerment, equal pay, etc., but we need to say we are not less than men. We are equal. We are not inferior. So, we need to put this in our advocacy programmes to encourage girls to choose the technologies, the sciences, all fields of sciences, and to connect them with the idea that science is important and technology is important in their lives and to search for the role model. Whether it is a woman or a man, we believe in equality.

The other day I was on a call and somebody said to me, oh, we wish this speaker is a woman. I said, well, we women believe in equality, so it doesn't make a difference. Yes, we would love to have a woman, but that's fine. We believe in equality. So, we are partners. We are not competitors. But for women to ask for their rights…once they don't feel they are inferior, they will ask for the rights, they will move ahead.

Ms Doreen Bogdan-Martin:

Terrific. Thank you so much for that. I couldn't agree more. You mentioned so many important elements, from tackling the stereotype issue to the unconscious bias and the need to look for role models within our communities, our societies. And you have certainly proved you can be a princess and you can be a scientist. And really, I think you're great. It's great to be excited, really. Thank you. Thank you for sharing those thoughts and your story with us. It's really been a terrific discussion. And I wanted to ask you one more question that I like to put to all of my guests. One, what was your first mobile device? And can you think of how it changed your life?

Princess Dr Nisreen El-Hashemite:  

This is a very good question. I remember when they started to have those mobile phones, it was like a big thing in my father's car. And there was a really, really large bag to hold this device. And then my first one was Motorola. And I just was finishing my medical degree. That was the early nineties. So I sound a bit old! And it was like, that big. It was almost eight hundred grammes, and oh my God, it was like a big thing to be excited about, so I called my mother! But then I found that after that excitement, that mobile device changed a lot, because we managed, like we the group that had these mobile phones, we were helping patients more easily we could connect together even as scientists... So, it is really of great help. And this added a lot to us. It added a lot to our work, the communication. That is the main thing because sometimes we expect the unexpected in the medical field or while doing our experiments or diagnosis. So, to connect directly with our colleagues, that was helpful later to get the results. At that time there were no smartphones, but we used to have text messages. To have these from the lab – it could be that ‘this is the result’. It helped us a lot. And for me, having the mobile phone helps me to serve my patients better, my students as well, and to be a better scientist.

Ms Doreen Bogdan-Martin:

Thank you, Nisreen. It's been an incredible discussion with you. I really want to thank you for spending your time with us, for sharing these fascinating stories, sharing your journey, sharing your insights.

Ladies and gentlemen, that concludes today's podcast. So until next time, let's all stay connected.

Thank you and goodbye.

Technician:

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