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Doreen Bogdan-Martin:

Is this thing on? Can you hear me?

Technical Moderator:

Yes, we can loud and clear. Thank you. Welcome to the latest episode of the UNconnected, a podcast series about information and communication technologies and development with Doreen Bogdan-Martin, Director of the ITU Telecommunication Development Bureau.

Doreen Bogdan-Martin:

I have the great pleasure to have with me today Nisreen Deeb, the executive director of the Lebanese league for women in business, an association that brings together professional women and provides them with a platform to share their experience, develop skills, establish networks and access funds and mentorships. Nisreen is also a computer scientist and a social entrepreneur. She's co-founded initiatives to empower youth and women in STEM, such as “Girls Got IT”, and she was the finalist for our 2021 Equals in Tech Awards. She has more than 12 years of experience in the IT industry, and she consults for many companies and organizations to help them digitally transform. In 2013, she was named as one of the top five tech-women emerging leaders in Lebanon. To ensure that other women can follow her path, Nisreen also dedicates her time to actively encouraging young women to appreciate studies and careers in STEM fields. With international Girls in ICT day around the corner on April 28 this year, it is the perfect time to chat with Nisreen on the importance of encouraging more women and girls to follow STEM and how we can get around those roadblocks that might be in their way.

So, let me start with our first question. Nisreen, tell us, when did you first realize that digital skills would be important for you? And do you think the skills would be useful professionally, personally empowering, or both?

Nisreen Deeb:

Hello, everyone. Hello, Doreen. And thank you so much for this opportunity. It's my ultimate pleasure to be with ITU and to send any simple message to all girls all over the world, especially the girls who are interested in this team, or IT specifically. So, basically when I realized that I'm passionate about, and the fun story…I didn't realize until I reached the first class studying computer science and found myself the only female in class. And if you tell me, why did you choose Computer Science? I would reply because my brother did. And this is something here I started realizing that, that girls are not really aware of IT skills, of IT majors and what they can do in their careers. And then when I first entered the class as a computer scientist, or studying the BS and I found [myself to be] the only female in class I found like, okay, it's not going to be an easy path. This is how I talked to myself, to be honest. And then it was not an easy three years, finalizing my BS degree, but then the more you give; the more you excel in this field, the more you realize that there is an issue that you need to solve. And after three years, I was the top student of the faculty with the highest GPA, of the faculty in the computer science department, English and French. And here I realized okay, I made it, even though I was the only female in class. Why other women are not being able to make it? So there is an issue, there is a gap here. And then I started joining organizations, co-founding initiatives, volunteering in organizations, just to give my time to empower more girls, even through word of mouth, talking to my friends, to my colleagues to the girls, that you can do it; I was able to meet it, and it was not easy, but it was an exciting path. And the story started this way.

I ended up now, I had the privilege to co-found a lot of initiatives to empower women and to be recognized by international organizations and institutions for the work I’m doing in Lebanon, because it is needed. And the more you network, the more you grow within your circle. The more you see more women, you find out that there is a lot of role models in woman in IT, whether in Lebanon in the Middle East or even worldwide. And you see we are improving, the percentage of the girls is improving, yet we are way behind. So we need to do more efforts. So this is how it started in a nutshell.

About your second question, how much it's important or it's essential, if it's needed or how much it can improve you. To be honest, having a career in IT and studying IT, it improved myself on different levels. It doesn't only, or didn’t only teach you how to be object-oriented on a technical perspective, it teaches you how to be detail-oriented, how to be picky, how to be perfectionist and how to be patient. When we spend nights waiting for lines of code to run and you still face bugs, bugs and you don't give up waiting on your programme to run. This is a skill that's going to effect you positively, personally. So, definitely, it improved you in two ways on technical side of your personality, and on the personal side of yourself actually. So definitely having a career or working in IT improved my technical skills, it improved my leadership skills. And if you ask me why I can directly relate, when you want to fight for your code, you want to fight for your idea…what is IT actually you are transferring? You are transforming something maybe that used to run manually; you are automating, and this is a simple thing in the IT part. And here, what do you need to deal with? You need first to analyze – analyze the work, you need to do the tactical analysis; you need to analyze the cases and the best way possible to deliver the same message in an automated way. And you need to convince people, and this is the personnel and the leadership and the communication skills and public speaking maybe skill, sometimes that comes on the way, that you need to convince people; and usually people are resistant to change. Here comes the need to deal with people’s mentality… is to convince them that this solution will help you better; this solution will deliver the same and many more better results to you. So this is basically in a nutshell.

Doreen Bogdan-Martin:

Thank you so much for that, Nisreen. Very inspiring. And it's great that you also focused on not just the digital skills, but the other skills that women and girls need from the analytical skills to the leadership skills, the communications of public speaking. And as you said, the more you give, the more you can excel. You know, I think you have, as you said, and when you encourage people to do it, I think you're proof that you can do it. So thank you so much for sharing that. Nisreen, this year's theme for international Girls in ICT day is ‘’access and safety’’. Women and girls, of course will never enjoy the full and free digital access that enables them to harness technology to change their lives, to change the world if they don't feel safe online. Can you share with us, what do you think we can do to make the online world a safe space for all?

Nisreen Deeb:

Definitely, I do agree 100% that many people are still sharing, we're in 2022, and many people are afraid of accessing the internet fully. And especially when it comes to women because we're hearing a lot of stories about how they are being abused, the cybersecurity attack and many other things over the internet. What I think we lack here is the awareness. We need to do a very right awareness for the women and for the girls about accessing the internet and about accessing technology. And I do I agree 100% with some people, they are afraid because they don't know. When you are worried about something, when you are afraid about doing something that's because you are not fully knowledgeable about it. So that's why always in general, I ask people “go”, “ask” – ask questions. Read about this topic before taking any decision before pre-judging things. For example, I'm going to give you an example to customize it maybe a bit. And in one of the ‘’Girls got IT’’ workshops, one of the feedback were, “Thank you, I was imagining that robots are only for boys.” And we were like, who said this? She pre-judged, this young girl. She couldn't imagine that one day she would be able to programme a robot. And when she found herself able and capable of programming a robot, she said, “Okay, I saw that it's only for boys”. And now if you hit people… there is people abusing girls over the internet. They are talking over messages… and those examples. Are you ever how to use it first? Are you aware that you are capable of using it the right way? We need a lot of awareness raising here. And this is our job. And personally I was not aware what computer science can bring to my path. And I can understand people's worries and people's fears. That's why it's our job. The other woman in IT, the organizations, the institutions first to provide access, and to provide awareness to guarantee the safe access. Women and girls have to understand when they are going to use the internet and how. And when they understand, they will follow it very well.

Doreen Bogdan-Martin:

Excellent, excellent. Thank you for that. I mean, really zooming in, as you said, on providing access together with that awareness piece. Thank you for that.

Nisreen Deeb:

And maybe I need to add one thing Doreen, on what’s going to help us towards that awareness. If any girl has faced something not safe over the internet, she should raise her voice. And she should say that. When she says that, it's going to be a learning lesson for the other girls. We cannot keep silent on the things that are happening over the internet. And now with the social media, and with the easy access maybe your voice can reach many ways, and far. So, first, we should give them awareness. Second, we should encourage them not to be shy on reporting any incident, or on asking question, and this going to be a great lesson for the others.

Doreen Bogdan-Martin:

Excellent. So that awareness with also encouragement to speak up. Thank you for that, great points. Nisreen, initiatives like Girls in ICT day help to encourage girls and young women to become contributors and hopefully, ultimately, leaders like yourself, in STEM, by tackling these misleading stereotypes and showing girls that they too have much to bring to these fields. You mentioned of course, the robot examples, and many girls thinking robots are only for boys. Tell us, in your experience, what do you think works best in terms of getting the message out there and really making an impact?

Nisreen Deeb:

It needs a full cycle of efforts if I can say it this way. Okay, you need to do the training, you need to train them, you need to provide them the opportunity, you need to provide them the access. But first, for me, I always say in all my speeches, that the first enemy for a woman is the woman herself. This is how I see it, Doreen. So first, the girls have to believe in themselves, that they can make it into a career in IT. That it's very easy for them to learn those skills. And logically speaking, women, we are perfectionists on our own – we are born to be perfectionists, to be picky, to be detail-oriented. And these skills are added value to the IT career by the way. It complements the IT career, actually. And that's why women can excel in the IT career. So first, we need to give awareness to the girls, that you can do it. And you can make it and you can excel in it. Wow, this has to be done. Always talk about role models in IT. Always bring leaders on the stage. Always share your experience with the others. Always share your challenges, not only your success. We were excited when we shared in our “Girls Got IT” initiative with 500 school girls. The challenges that women have faced, yet she was able to make it. This will encourage the girls to pursue this career, to give them awareness that they can make it, that this career and this field actually is not only a male one, even though they are dominant now, we are improving. And also to show them what they can do. Many of the girls were not aware what they can do in their IT career if they pursue an IT major. So we need to show them about the career options that they can get after getting into the IT major.

Another important point, honestly, Doreen, is to work on the parents; is to break the culture, the stereotypes; is to work on the parents of the girls, that, fine, education is a great career. HR and business is a great career, but supporting the girl to go into the major that she wants, that she loves, whether engineering, whether IT, is a priority. We've heard a lot here in Lebanon and in the Middle East— go and pursue a career in education. What's the reason dad and mom? Because you're going to have flexible working hours, you're going to have flexible holidays with your children after, because culture wise, the taking care of children or, raising up children is only the job of the woman or of the mother. And this is something cultural, Doreen, that we need to work on it. We need to ask the parents to support the girls and the women. To go into these fields…we need to ask the companies, the organizations, to have years of flexible working hours for working mothers to support a woman who's going to, who wants to go into engineering or IT Career because we know that it might require extra effort or extra working hours sometimes, and extra commitment. So, it’s a full cycle. you need to work on the culture, you need to work on the society, you need to work first on the girls themselves. And you need to work on the parents, and you need to work on the organizations.

Doreen Bogdan-Martin:

Absolutely. Thank you so much for that that's those are some great points, indeed, that full cycle is critical. Because if you just work on one piece, you won't be able to tackle it. And you rightly mentioned that, that cultural impact, the role that parents can have. And of course, the need for companies to have that supportive work environment…so critical to keeping women in the tech sector, as we often see, this leaky pipeline syndrome, where women actually leave relatively quickly because of toxic work environments. So that corporate piece, and a supportive work environment is so critical. Thank you for that. Nisreen, is there anything you think that would have been useful to have in your education, and in terms of your curriculum, when you were growing up? And perhaps, what would be your key message to young girls interested in following STEM studies and getting into STEM careers today?

Nisreen Deeb:

This is not an easy question because I need to be selective in terms of the highlights of my career so far. But what I remember Doreen, is that I never stopped. This is the highlight.. may be how and why I reached here. I never stopped. Even if I was internally afraid of doing this step, I was pushing myself to the extreme and overcoming those fears to go into this step. Whether a hard course at the university, I used for three years to manage, attending my masters courses in computer science, working a full-time job, working another part-time job, doing private tutoring, and volunteering in organizations. And why? Because I had that passion. So, maybe my highlight or my key messages would be for the other girls: follow your passion. Do what you love; try to break all the obstacles, and you are not alone. Because I know that this is very good to the ears, those messages, but trust me, you are not alone in this path. Always ask questions, always reach out to other women and reach out to men as well. Because we're here not against men; we need their support, we are collaborating to reach an equal stage for women and men in IT and in STEAM skills.

So, again, if you are following your passion, if you are being courageous of doing those steps, you will succeed and ask for support and seek support. I used to ask a lot of questions in my class. I used to be known by the way, Doreen, as the woman who asked a lot of questions. Yes, I wasn't afraid of raising my hand when I'm surrounded by 35 men in the class. So what? I want an answer. If you want something, fight for it. And the most important thing as well… Support other women along your career. along your path. Support other colleagues; support other girls, whenever you find an opportunity to help, to offer, you have to offer your support for other women who are struggling, give them the support. And even if they are not struggling, just give them support to inspire them. Sometimes a sentence can help. You know what, I have received recently a message over Facebook message from a friend from another country. Maybe this was on a different note. But she sent me maybe a personal message and it made my day, my week, until now I'm happy receiving it. She was tackling another issue Doreen, which is being a woman with hijab, because personally I have faced a lot of challenges entering the IT career because I'm a woman, and I'm a woman wearing hijab. She sent me a message actually. And I want really to highlight it, and it just made me so proud about what we are doing as women, and how we can be a role model without even noticing it. So just to summarize it, I can access it right now, maybe to summarize it very quickly…maybe this message is too personal to you, but I have to tell you… ‘’Hello lady, how are you? This might be extra personal to you. But I had a tough time in the UK as a Muslim woman among many people in the city and at work. One of the things that reminded me of why I wear hijab was a photo of you and how proud you wear it. So you may not know, but it helped me indirectly’’. I'm not tackling that topic Doreen…but I want to tackle another topic, which is that you can inspire other women without even noticing it, by being you. And just being myself, I'm raising my voice on the table. And I'm asking for the rights of the other woman in the IT industry. And I'm working like I was working for nine years extra hour, pure volunteering from my own expenses, from my own holidays just to support other women in their careers, because I believe in this mission. So, be passionate, be courageous, ask, ask for help, look up always for role models in IT, and support other women on your way. This is my key messages.

Doreen Bogdan-Martin:

Excellent messages. Thank you so much for those words of encouragement. I think Nisreen, you are a real inspiration to all of us. You're a demonstration of passion, of commitment, of courage, and someone that has broken many barriers and taken down obstacles. Thank you, thank you so much for that. And also, the importance of engaging men and supporting others, which is often something we don't see enough of in terms of women supporting other women. So thank you so much for that. And Nisreen, finally, one last question that I asked to all of my interviewees. Tell us what was your first mobile device, and how did it change your life?

Nisreen Deeb:

Okay, my first mobile device was a shared one. Because financially, we were not able to get a mobile device, me and my sister, and we were attending the same university. So, we saved money. And we got the first… the one before Blackberry. The next, the second one was Blackberry. But the first one was maybe the one Nokia that had a fish shape. It was famous at that time. So this was my first device and it was shared, and here's the sharing is caring part of my life. So we were me and my sister; three days I take it, and the other three days she takes it. And the weekend we share it. So, how it changed my life! It made it easier, until now. Like you can see on my mobile device. Everything is connected- the Google Drive, the OneDrive, the iCloud Drive. I trust the internet. But I'm aware how to use it. And this is key here, Doreen. I cannot function without my mobile. Everything is much accessible and people… they asked me for a document… and I can directly send it by email within two minutes, by whatsapp within another two minutes. And they all get shocked – oh my God, you are so fast. Because I do my research before I use any technology. If I'm convinced, I go for it. So, that’s it.

Doreen Bogdan-Martin:

Thank you for that. And indeed that that story is a great example of the power and potential of access to technologies as something truly life changing. Nisreen, thank you so much for spending this time with us, for sharing your story, for being so inspirational. I look forward to continuing this discussion and would welcome further engagement with the ITU to support more girls and women in the tech sector. Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes this episode of the UNconnected podcast. Until next time, let's all stay connected. Goodbye. Thank you.